13 March 2020

A reminder to atheists who "debate" religionists

We don't need to convince them of anything.  They are the ones who need to convince us.  Our side is already winning this argument.  Year by year far more people abandon religions than join them; each new generation is less religious than the previous one; and the non-religious percentage of the population grows inexorably.  Even in the places where religion seems most entrenched, it's actually in rapid retreat.

So there's no point in religionists demanding that we prove anything.  We have nothing to prove.  They need to prove their case, and the hard data on declining religious affiliation show that they're utterly failing to do it.  If they keep on using the same old apologetics and clichés to defend their beliefs, those beliefs will simply continue on down the road to extinction.  We don't need to address their "arguments", most of which were refuted centuries ago and, more importantly, are abjectly failing on the real-world battlefield of winning hearts and minds.  They need to address ours, on our terms.

Ball's in their court.  I'm not holding my breath.

[Note:  This is not an invitation to rehash all those same tired old arguments in the comments here.  It's just a reminder to atheists who for some reason feel obligated to engage in "debate" with ancient nonsense.]


Blogger Mary said...

Good post and you are so correct. It’s absolutely useless to try to convince them or just open their little brains just a wee bit, so don’t bother. Time and progress will hopefully take care of this religion problem in time. And the world will be better off for it.

It’s no different than trying to convince a trump supporter that they are wrong and being lied to daily. It’s a useless endeavor. Facts don’t register.

13 March, 2020 20:49  
Blogger Mike said...

The last thing I would almost do is argue religion. Some people need religion and are blind to logic. So why bother? As long as their belief is not hurting me in some way. When their belief starts messing with me, game on.

13 March, 2020 21:59  
Blogger Geo. said...

Excellent graphic, left to right reminds me of how I felt getting out of bed and heading for the bathroom at 5 a.m. every morning for 50 years --with exception of far-right figure which is more muscular than I got. Is that Ontology recapitulates Phylogeny? Who expects a Spanish Inquisition? No arguments here; I was always headed toward another sort of waste receptacle. Retired 11 years ago and feel better already.

13 March, 2020 23:18  
Anonymous Mel said...

I don't think its guaranteed. The power of religion is increasing in Russia, Hungary, and Poland (I remember a Sunday link about LGBT-free zones in Poland).

All three of those countries were once run by atheist dictators who waged war on religions. Perhaps there's a link between freedom and religion in people's minds there.

The maps of North Africa/Southwest Africa are interesting. Looks like Yemen's the only one that's becoming more religious - like Poland and Russia, South Yemen was once a communist dictatorship. I'd like to see similar maps for the "Stans" which used to be part of the Soviet Union.

14 March, 2020 10:02  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


14 March, 2020 11:38  
Blogger Infidel753 said...

Mary: They're certainly unable to understand why they're losing the argument.

Mike: The problem is that their religion has been hurting other people, disastrously so, for 1,700 years. It's somewhat less so today, but still very dangerous.

Geo: Any waste receptacle will do for the religious nonsense.

Mel: Yes, its political power has increased in those places, as it has in the US since Trump took office. That doesn't change the fact that religious belief here has continued to decline despite its political strength, and the same is probably true in those other countries as well. The decline of religion seems inexorably linked with increased education and prosperity. Yemen is retrogressing in development due to the catastrophic effects of the war there, which probably accounts for the reversion to greater religiosity. In Russia, Hungary, and Poland, there is no such retrogression and so religion is probably continuing to decline in terms of actual belief, regardless of what the governments of those places are pushing. Poland alone seems to have a really strong mass religious belief -- as Ireland did 20 years ago.

Anon: Yep.....

14 March, 2020 13:23  
Blogger Jack said...

Yep. I will gladly listen when they have new evidence to present to support their claims. Until then, I have other things I'd rather be doing.

14 March, 2020 13:25  
Blogger Infidel753 said...

More here on how religion continues to decline even when pro-religion forces hold immense state power.

14 March, 2020 13:26  
Anonymous Professor Taboo said...

HEAR HEAR Infidel!!! (raises his cocktail glass in salute!)

Here is to a SPEEDY arrival to Secularism and Humanism with a constant hunger for science, science, and more science benefiting all humanity and Earth species and ecosystems! 😊

14 March, 2020 17:33  
Anonymous NickM said...

I have never felt the need (or point) of arguing a negative. It makes very little sense to me. But I don't see an epic rift between science and religion. Perhaps that is because here in the UK religion is seen as kinda a quaint heritage thing like the BBC TV show Antiques Roadshow.

Despite having an established religion (the CofE - which practically nobody gives a toss about) we are practically speaking very secular.

As to Poland (I know little of the other places) my sister-in-law's Polish long-term boyf was a Catholic. What finished him was office over-looked both a Catholic seminary and a porn shop. He observed many gents of the cloth furtaively going from one to the other. They live together (in sin!!! - well, they have a mortgage in Swiss Francs) in a small city in Silesia.

15 March, 2020 04:07  
Blogger Infidel753 said...

Professor: It is coming -- it will take time, but it is coming.

Nick: But I don't see an epic rift between science and religion.

Unfortunately, though, there is. For 400 years religion has fought against the progress of science at every step of the way, and is continuing to do so. It's because countries like the UK are almost entirely secular that the issue is not so visible to you -- religion no longer has enough power there to do much damage. But that doesn't change the fact that religion is the mortal enemy of science and reason.

15 March, 2020 05:56  
Blogger Ranch Chimp said...

I agree there is nothing to debate, or to even prove for that matter. I remember years back I had a few debates with folks who were, I guess, self proclaimed "chosen ones" to preach, etc. I engaged, of course, a bit, because an organization I was with in opposition to this institutional religious stuff. But that kind of thing/ debate stuff just goes in circles ... I learned to let them talk, and I walk ... wasted too many hours talking with these folks as far as I'm concerned, but to each their own ... if you enjoy it, as a hobby, belief, or whatever, go for it ... I get nothing out of it at all. The thing that alwayz puzzled me (besides the blatant hypocrisy) about some of these folks, is, how they say they believe in a "higher power", they label as "God" ... see life, nature, and the rest that they claim to cherish as creation ... and outright deny evolution, or even science for that matter, they even oppose sexuality that is not in conformity with their guidelines they create through phobias (I guess that is what I would call them?) ... basically, bottom line ... they deny all that has proven to be the process and evolution of life ... that they "believe" is the creation of their concept of a creator/ God, that looks and thinks like them (because they created their God, in their image). Now if that isn't confusing as Hell, I don't know what is. Funny part of it, it has never failed, when I talked to these folks, that they could never last 10 minutes tops without getting confused trying to answer questions that I asked them, they had to actually pause and think. Why? ... simple, because I asked simple common sense questions, which made them pause and question ... I guess that would be a "sin" in their book.

15 March, 2020 06:05  
Blogger Infidel753 said...

Oh, it's fine for those who want to argue with the religious nuts. I just wrote this to remind everybody where the burden of proof lies.

15 March, 2020 06:38  

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