08 December 2015

Trump -- Republicans at the crossroads

Believe it or not, there is an upside to the increasingly-disturbing Trump phenomenon -- it is showing us that, for large numbers of Republicans, there is a limit to the degree of evil they can stomach.  This is well illustrated by my number-one go-to site for keeping up with a range of right-wing viewpoints, Race42016.  Its open discussion threads for yesterday and today have been dominated by rancorous debate between the Trumpolines and other Republican tribes, who seem to be realizing that their party is facing a problem much bigger than simply winning or losing next year's election.  A few sample comments from today's discussion:

12 Freddy Ardanza: "There is dumb, there is dumber and then come Trump supporters."

13 Smack1968:  "I wonder how long it would take you jerks to rally around Trump if he called for Mexican Internments?.... probably a nano second. My wife, who was born in Mexico City, would endangered under a Trump Presidency."

110 Martha:  "You know, the GOP has always been (I thought unfairly) labeled racist. I knew we had some, but then so does the left. But now it seems like we have a bigger problem than we ever imagined."

127 Tim:  "Whatever. We're going to beat Trump, even if we have to vote for Hillary to do it. Even if we have to steal it at the convention. This piece of **** will never be president. Ever."

130 Smack1968:  "Let it be known where I stood at this moment....let the history books tell on who's side I was on during the era of the Trump.  Firmly against this human orange sludge called 'The Donald'."

134 Tim:  "It was only a matter of time before the racist Tea Bagger/Talk radio alliance did at the presidential level what they did at the Senate level......They are worse than the Birchers, worse than the Know Nothings, worse than the Jim Crow Democrats. They are the 4th Reich, and their defeat is now more important than defeating the Democrats. They are a threat to democracy, to the safety and security of the country, and to the greater good."

167 Sands:  "I choose the door. If my party wants to nominate an openly raciest, morally bankrupt, and intellectually vacant old man to represent us... then it's really not my party anymore, is it?"

169 Jerald:  "They just want a public figure who vents in public their own fears, frustrations, and prejudices. Trump is demagoguing them and they are falling for it hook, line, and sinker..."

180 PA Conservative:  "I realize I, too, am probably no longer at home in this party. I always defended the GOP against charges of racism and hatred, but after reading that poll I believe the critcs were right."

Most of these people support the "normal" Republican agenda with all that that implies, but I do have to respect what they're saying here.  It's not easy to acknowledge that something has gone this disastrously wrong on one's own side.

Trump has plenty of supporters, of course -- there are some of them defending him in the discussions above, and Progressive Eruptions has found a doozy of an endorsement.  But the Republican establishment seems fully awake, finally, to the monster in their midst.  Here's an already-notorious ad from Ohio Governor John Kasich, which speaks for itself:

For the last month or two I've been assuming that Trump would be the Republican nominee -- he's remained the front-runner for five months, and nothing seems likely to change that.  Now, I'm not so sure.  It seems likely that the party leadership, realizing what a catastrophe his nomination would be for the party's future reputation, may well pull out all the stops to prevent it, even if that means he would run as a third candidate, torpedo their chosen nominee, and rip the party in half.  Better to lose the election without Trump than to lose it with him and suffer the stigma of having put forward a man they themselves have reviled as a crypto-fascist.  And if he is the nominee -- well, how can the party possibly support a candidate they have denounced in such terms?

Most Republicans will never become liberals.  But perhaps some of them, having seen what lies down the road they have set out upon, will draw back and start to grope their way home to reality.


Blogger Ranch Chimp said...

I was watching the MSM news last night tele prime- time ... anywayz ... I got a load of this latest Trump show ... tell you the truth, I was laughing just listening to some of the Republicans they interviewed and highlighted with their response to Trump, it was hilarious, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh! {:- ) They were saying all this shit like ... he's racist, a bigot, has no morals, is against the fabric of democracy, un-Constitutional, against what the Republican Party stands for, etc, etc (I'm sure I left out some) ... that is what had me laughing though ... I was thinking while listening to Graham, Ryan, Bush, etc ... "and WTF are ya'll's values about?" ... all of which are tearing down our country, low income and minorities rights from voting to labour, morals, Constitution and every damn thing else, ALL owned by multi- national corporations ... ALL f'ng America in one way or another, all bought and paid for treasonists and traitors to Democracy, and everything that the people of this country cherish etc. As far as Trump though ... I dont know if he's sincere and actually means what he sayz(?), or just putting on a show, after all (and most of these MF's are more full of shit than a sewage treatment plant)... he's a billionaire entertainer and investor that relies on bankruptcy laws and funneling every buck he makes to tax havens, that depends on subsidies, welfare, tax loopholes from our tax dollars whenever he can get it ... and even admits it. However ... "IF" he is sincere ... I commend him, for at least his honesty, something that is rare out of most of these frail politicians who like to fantasize they can actually lead, when most couldnt lead a pack of sewer rats and are at the same level.

09 December, 2015 06:03  
Blogger Shaw Kenawe said...

I watched CNN this AM interview a group of Trump supporters and listened to them steadfastly defend him on each of his controversial statements and ideas that the interviewer raised. There is no persuading his supporters to examine how those statements and ideas would impact this country's values and laws, because I think they listen more to how he reaffirms their fears and how his bombastic promises make them feel he will restore power to their diminishing demographic.

I've also read more than a few Republicans denouncing the neo-fascism Trump is selling to his gullible followers. Our own sane Republican governor here in Massachusetts angrily denounced Trump's latest numbskull idea. We have no idea how many Americans, conservative and liberal, reject Trump and his fascistic ideas.

09 December, 2015 06:52  
Anonymous NickM said...

First off... If the GOP go with Trump then it will be suicide. An I don't mean just for 2016. That is generational They might manage to get some traction by 2032.

Second. Please answer this. I am British but I know and love the USA - been there a few times - is Trump's "No Muslims" thing actually unconstitutional? I mean it seems to urinate from a great height on the first amendment. A further issue that occurs is let's say I go to Trumpton on holiday then how precisely do I prove I am not a Muslim. I'm not but how on Earth would they know? A UK passport (like a US one) doesn't state your religion. So essentially they'd just have my word. I suppose (being white, native born English) they might let it pass but do they know. I am uncircumcised but it will be liquid nitrogen time in Hell before I let a US immigration officer inspect my penis. And what about men who aren't Muslim but are circumcised for any number of reasons?

It strikes me that Trump is not just (although a lot of folk will see it that way) discriminating against Muslims but against basically everyone. I mean I can't objectively prove (even by getting the old chap out - circumcision is generally not regarded as an absolute absolute in Islam in the way it is in Judaism). So I can't prove my non-Muslimness.

If the GOP nominate Trump an he wins - well, I see a rocky road for you lot and me not feeling confident about being allowed into the home of the free and land of the brave. Not good.

But my earlier point. Can he take the oath if he wants to use the Bill of Rights as toilet paper?

09 December, 2015 07:54  
Blogger Les Carpenter said...

One of the biggest upside results may be that the younger voters who chose a conservative fiscal ideology but have a more tolerant live and let live social philosophy will be able to change the GOP. Maybe wishful thinking but it is within the realm of possibility. If that were to happen it would be good for America.

But I doubt it would be enough for me to rejoin the party I left 10 years ago.

09 December, 2015 12:33  
Blogger Infidel753 said...

Ranch: I also have that concern about Trump -- that his wackiness is making the rest of the Republican candidates look sane and acceptable by comparison, when in fact any of them becoming President would be a disaster for the country. It will be Hillary's job to remind us of the reality.

Shaw: I've noticed that on Race42016 also -- the Trumpolines are unreachable, even by fellow Republicans. There's a heck of a lot of acrimony building up. By the convention at the latest we'll see how deep it goes and how many have rejected Trumpism -- either Trump will be the nominee or he won't, and either way, it's likely to result in a serious rupture of the party. I can't see people like those I quoted in this post voting for Trump, and a recent poll of Trump supporters showed that 68% of them would continue to support him if he ditched the party and ran independently.

Nick: It could well be that it would result in a long-term setback for the party. I could even imagine it splitting in two, though it seems to be heading that way anyway.

As for whether his no-Muslim-entry plan is unconstitutional, that depends on whether it includes Muslim US citizens outside the US or just immigrants -- as is often the case with Trump, there are different versions of the idea floating around. If it would apply to US citizens, it would almost certainly violate both the First and Fourteenth Amendments (so would his idea about making Muslim Americans "register" and carry special ID). If it was only immigrants, well, a sovereign country can regulate immigration pretty much any way it chooses. As to how officials would know whether someone was Muslim or not, Trump obviously hasn't thought it through to that extent. I don't think he really understands the concept of "policy". He just says whatever comes to mind at any given moment.

But while I still think he could well be the Republican nominee, I think he has almost zero chance of winning the Presidency.

Rational: That could be, but of course then the Godhatesfagsian types would abandon the party since it would no longer represent them. And if anything, it seems that the Godhatesfagsians are becoming more and more dominant. Rand Paul is the only libertarian in the current Presidential field and he's getting nowhere. It's more likely the social moderates would leave and abandon the party to the religious nutters.

09 December, 2015 17:08  
Anonymous NickM said...

I think your final paragraph in that comment hits the nail bang-on. There have got to be a fair few GOPers that are, well, embarrassed. In short people who don't think of Margaret Atwood's "Handmaid's Tale" as an instruction manual. I have had some stick for praising that book and what I wrote was about just one aspect. The Republic of Gilead makes its real power grab by banning cash which I think is an interesting means of moving towards complete social control. I don't think any reasonable person: left, right, centre would like to live there.

I agree that I can't see Trump as POTUS. I hope not. He is utterly divisive, casually wrong has practically no grasp of foreign affairs and has only one talent - attention seeking. He chucked his toys out of the pram (again) very recently for not being Time's "Person of the Year". Beaten by Angela Merkel who has by and large (as as I can see) steered the Good ship Deutschland rather well.

09 December, 2015 18:58  
Blogger Infidel753 said...

Nick: There's certainly going to be a split. The fundie and libertarian ideologies are ultimately incompatible -- but you only have to look at the poll standings of Cruz and Carson vs. Rand Paul to see which element has the upper hand in the party. Trump, of course, doesn't fit neatly into either camp -- he personifies the incoherent rage that has been fomented across the whole right wing.

11 December, 2015 04:23  
Blogger Dandy Lion said...

I personally believe that the DNC knows that the Pig in a Pantsuit is toast and will soon bring in either Elizabeth Warren, or Joe Biden.
In any case, I'll take Donald Trump any day over the Liberal Hag.
I don't understand why this shameless Heifer isn't behind bars right now..

22 January, 2016 14:43  
Blogger Infidel753 said...

Anita: Thanks for providing an illustration of the mental level of the typical Trump supporter.

22 January, 2016 16:47  

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